Pistol Calibers.......
 

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

I was looking at this same picture last night trying to determine which was the best.

9MM looks like it would have the thinnest wound channel and disrupt the least.

The 40 cal and 45 cal look pretty dang similar to me.

Electric-Amish

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

"Desert Eagle, point five oh????":D

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

So much for 9mm lacking penetration. I'll take 17 rounds 9mm JHP over 10 rounds of .45 any day.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

The discussions here have really made me aware of the difference between a house gun and a car gun and ammo.

Till then I only considered home defense uses.

I fired a Charter 44 special that was supposedly too hard kicking to manage, but I really liked that gun. I'm glad to see it is being made again and might get one,

http://www.gunblast.com/Bulldog_Pug.htm

With the right ammo that might make a good car gun. Though you just get 5 rounds. But I like revolvers. And under $300 new in stainless is a heck of a deal.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6034/akeh8.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8...9285909dh1.jpg

Just take the stock off and its an AK-Pistol :tongue_ma:

I think I'd go with 9mm, it seems like it would be easier to put a tight group into something, and fast, with 9mm rather than .45

I'd get a .40 but 9mm is more common, and theres a ton of other guns that use that caliber that I might want, and be able to get, in a post-SHTF situation (mac 10, uzi, mp5, calico, etc.)

Still kind of bummed that getting a pistol license here costs $300 whether they grant it or not, and takes 6 months. Can I just get a glock from Tyrone and carry a constitution in my back pocket?

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

My 44-mag is a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a very mild kick due to the heavy frame and long ass barrel..........(see below) :D

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...l/PICT1022.jpg

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

ha that is great. what movie? thanks !

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Very informative! Thank you . . .

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Very Very load specific. In the 125 grain sized bullet yes, but not by much . In the 140 something grain a tie edge goes to 357 Mag. In anything bigger -- of which there are a couple standard sized bullet weights, the .357 Mag walks away.

The .357 Mag can be loaded up to 180 grain which puts it into another category almost 44Magish.

E-A

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Looks to me the .357 SIG is the best. Largest wound cavity by a good margin. 9mm looks bad, sure it pierces through deep but look at the wound cavity... it's far more likely to leave a through-and-through minor injury than a devastating blow

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

ballistic gelatin is not a living animal body. those tests are interesting but not decisive of anything at all.

Since I do not expect to have to be firing 17 rounds to end the only probably encounters I will ever be unlucky enough to meet, if any, I will prefer the .45. I plan and practice aquiring the target and then my front sight and stroking the trigger twice ready to do more if appropriate.

If you need 17 rounds to defend yourself in the typical American armed encounter you are probably F****d.

The best shooters all shoot 45. I heard once several years back that a few seal teams were using 357s. 9mm is not on the radar screen unless it has to be. This debate is a nullity. 9mm is better than 38 acp, 357 better than both, .357 mag and sig and 40 sw and 45 all occupy the top tier of self defense loads, with 45 being the long time favorite. thas all you need to know.

if you want to read more than get the evans and sanow book that boosts .357 125 jhp as the best, that is the only credible alternate view it seems to me.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

AM

That is one accurate Gun in his hands!!!!

I loves me a Big Revolver:D

E-A

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Both .357's are righteous.

I like a bullet design that has an enhanced wounding effect but against soft spongie badguys the truth is there's not enough difference between those calibers to ammont to anything. All of them will only kill with propper shot placement. None of them is good enough to allow you to "miss more." They are different in other more meaningful ways.

.45acp is a ridiculously heavy pistol round, it weighs as much as .308 yet offers none of the power. If you're just carrying a few rounds with your ccw it doesn't matter much but if you need to bug out you'll have poorly spent a large chunk of your haulable load. .45acp is as good as the others against bare flesh but it and the .40sw will bounce off intermediate steel barriers 9mm and .357 will penetrate. The .45 is also big and fat, if you don't have large hands you'll have to give up capacity, ergonomics or both. The major plus to the .45acp is in the low pressure loads, easier on your ears and less likely to spook your horse. Those can actually be worthwhile advantages for the right person under the right situation, it's very sensible for a mounted rancher for instance.

IMO .40sw is pointless. It only exists because FBI agents are terrible marksmen, don't want to take the blame for personal failing and are too sissy to handle the 10mm. The only people I've ever known that bought a .40 did so because they were browbeat away from the 9mm they wanted by 1911 fans with their wild stories of magic bullets. If you're going to get a .40 get a 9x19, .357sig or .45 instead.

9x19 is alf the weight of .45, double the capacity with plenty of power and superior performance against some kinds of commonly encountered barriers. It's also cheap to shoot. The .357's are the best if you need to shoot large animals or penetrate barriers.

Capacity is your friend. The days of duking it out mano y mano with the schoolyard bully have come and gone. We live in an age of gang violence and civil unrest. You might be able to get the job done with a few rounds but it's always better to have more on tap. Once you factor in multiple assailants, misses, intervening barriers, the need for suppressive fire etc it's not even close. Saying "If I need more than X rounds I'm dead anyway" isn't realistic. It's an excuse or fatalism but not realistic.

I saw a man shot through the leg with a .40sw hollowpoint once. Made a nice round tunnel through the meat big enough to stick you finger through. He didn't scream or cry, his reaction was initially "oh shit!" not "ouch!" He could still walk and communicate. There are no magic bullets.

The Marshall and Sanow experiment is garbage.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

AM -

I have owned one of the charter bulldogs in .44 special.

Not a bad little gun.

However, it needs to be handloaded to reach it's full potential.

Unless something has come on the markets recently, all available factory ammo is loaded to specs for the standards of the day when it was originally developed.

You could probably find a custom reloader to build some, but there's a certain amount of hassle factor there.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Good info ~ now I wonder if he would even have much of a leg left after being shot by my .44-Mag using 210-gr ammo @ 1325 FPS :D

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

rev you crack me up man

lol thatts why they call em feebs

I'll bet it hurt pretty fast though unless he is one wierd dude

they wrote a book compiling shooting statistics, which is a good read in this area and a lot better than much of the trash that is generated as articles in gun mags, and their conclusion favored your 357 preference, anyways, but here is a critique of their statistical methods http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...l-analysis.htm

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

The Fabulous .44 Mag
Why it's still the best all-around handgun cartridge around

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammuni...bulous_44_mag/

Despite its legend as a real powerhouse, it's important to understand that the .44 Mag is not really a "powerhouse" in hunting cartridge terms. The "standard" fast factory load uses a 240-grain bullet at 1,350 fps for 971 ft-lbs of energy. This is not a lot of energy at all; even though the bullet weight and larger caliber make a difference, this is just half the energy churned up by the .30-30. Because of its blunt, short bullets, velocity drops quickly, so the .44 Mag is at its best at very close range.
<!--end paragraph-->
<!--begin image--><TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width=225 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammuni...ourMAG225C.jpg The .44 Magnum is an extremely accurate cartridge limited mainly by open sights and a revolving cylinder. The author's 61⁄2-inch Smith & Wesson Model 29 will deliver this kind of accuracy at 25 yards off-hand on any given day
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!--end image-->

<!--begin paragraph-->Despite the low energy, I've had pretty good luck with 240-grain softpoints, JHPs and hard-cast flatpoints on deer-size game, including various midsize African antelope, out to maybe 125 yards, which is really the .44's sensible limit. On larger game it's best to cut the range in half, and I believe the heavier bullets, although generally slower, are even better than the 240-grain loads. The 300-grain loads from the major manufacturers are good, but the hottest over-the-counter .44 Mag load that is safe in revolvers is probably Garrett Cartridges' 310-grain Super-Hard-Cast Hammerhead bullet loaded to 1,325 fps for 1,200 ft-lbs of energy. Penetration is excellent with the hard-cast bullet and, of course, Elmer Keith discovered many years ago how effective his Keith-type flatnosed bullets were on game.
<!--end paragraph-->

<!--begin paragraph-->Heavy loads like this change the recoil picture considerably. I shoot my .44 a lot, but I don't shoot it much with the heaviest loads because it takes just a few of them to peg out my fun meter. However, I do shoot them, and I strongly recommend you do if you're planning on hunting with them. Because of the more violent muzzle flip of heavier loads, my point of impact rises dramatically as I move up the power scale, so it's important to sight-in carefully with whatever load you're planning to hunt with.
<!--end paragraph-->

<!--begin paragraph-->But I don't use the heavier loads more than I have to. I want my .44s to remain fun to shoot.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

This anecdote is part of why I like hi-cap handguns. From the well known "FerFAL" in Argentina, where TS already HTF.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Give me a 44-mag and I'll stop a BEAR........I don't need hi-cap.

:bear_tongue:

The 44-mag is one of the very few pistols that when opposing your enemy holding a shotgun, he'll be blasting the ceiling and falling on his ass - knockdown power is awesome from a Dirty Harry special.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

AD, you sure are obsessed with the "image" of your firearms, aren't you? First the tommy gun, now a .44 mag? :bear_w00t:

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

The stupid thing is that the man who won the event that precipitated the creation of the .40sw did so with a snubnose .38! If it really was the gun and not the shooter you'd think the feebs would have all switched back to .38's. It was marksmanship that won the day.

Hehe... it doesn't hurt till the next day. Nah, it's just one of those weird things. You get hurt enough and shock takes over, you won't necessarily feel the pain for a longer time than you'd expect. Especially in a fight. I've been kicked, punched, clubbed, stabbed, shot, you name it. I don't know if it's the adrenaline or what but pain isn't really a factor during a fight, not for me and not for a lot of other people. It's not a matter of being a super macho toughguy it's just physiological responses.

It's not their math it's their data set, see .44mag. It's pointless anyway because shot placement is the critical factor and that wasn't adequately accounted for.

Bersas are much better than they have any right being at their pricepoint. I have a friend who has I don't know how many thousands of rounds through his aluminum framed .380 without it showing any serious signs of wear. The thing never misses a beat, either. I like their concealed carry version, I went for a Makarov because I wanted the all steel construction but that particular Bersa was a very close runner up for a compact carry piece.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Sounds like you should find another woman to be with...sorry REV I couldn't help myself. :D

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Attachment 33923

one shot, one obliteration w/50 Beowulf pistol

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

That's what I get for marrying a Celt! An admirable race but those women sure do have a temper!

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

So you're trying to say I'm 'shallow' when it comes to firearms ? :D......hey, I know they look purdy - but they also pack a punch.

"Why waste money on an ugly woman ?"

FWIW - my first gun was a Ruger 44 Blackhawk........and the current one that I own with the 10 1/2" barrel I've had for about 5 years now......only the 'Tommy' is new.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

the ppk design's awesome for carry, I got a feg in 9x17 and a mak in 9x18. the feg is lighter and the mak is heavier but then again I might have to bitch slap a mofo with it so to speak

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Haha! I don't do bitchslaps. Ever see Equilibrium? I'm all about the gunkata! Grasp the barrel of your Makarov or other auto, insert your index finger into the trigger gaurd and enjoy your mini war club. I installed a landyard loop from a PCR on my CZ 75B, makes a nice little heel spike to enhance the effect.

The PA-63 is a good gun though in 9x18 its not quite up to the hotter loads the Makarov can eat, not as a steady diet anyway. My Makarov is the most accurate handgun I own and I like the fact that I can shoot the heck out of it every day for the rest of my life and only have to replace a few springs.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

First and foremost:

SKY: I would quote chapter and verse from the 1911 propaganda handbook, fighting the Moros in the Philippines, etc. (of course what they don't tell you in that story is that the .45 ACP didn't slow down the Moros either!).

OK, for the .45 LONG COLT, which is what they shipped to the Phillipines (not the 1911 45 ACP - which was NOT available in large numbers until AFTER 1913, which is when this insurrection was finally quelled - what you are missing is this round went in SMALL NUMBERS to the Philipines as a revolver, but NOT the 1911) - NOR is the info about 'slowing down' the Moros correct. We literally slaughtered them WHOLESALE with little loss of American lives. US soldiers used to joke how they 'civilized' the Moro's with a Krag. The term 'run amok' CAME from this period of Moro's.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/654540/posts

During WWII in the Pacific, when the Americans faced the Japanese 'Banzai' attacks they found that you either had to shoot them with the M1 Garand (30.06) or the 1911 or Thompson (45 acp) BECAUSE these were the only rounds that caused the bodies of dead Japanese to fall backwards, NOT FORWARDS INTO THEIR FOXHOLES, which caused numerous problems. So the idea that the 45 acp won't 'slow down' a foe is completely erroneous. Consider studying the history of the 45 acp during WWII, as it was NEVER used in the Phillipines against the Moros. Sorry dude.

For everyone ELSE, the ballistic gelatin test doesn't give 'real world' examples. When wearing a heavy winter coat, these results go right out the window.

Finally, this test didn't list the 7.62x25. Here are results of a modern test on it. And people ask me WHY I own pistols in this 'whipmy' caliber. So either carry one of the CZ53 or Makarovs or carry your AK or AR everywhere.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

Oh, and more people have been killed with a .22 caliber throughout history than any other caliber. That's been proven over and over again. It IS a marksmanship issue. Or maybe an 'assassins' issue.

The other thing that this test doesn't address is the TYPES of bullets used.

I have three boxes sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW that are all .357 Mag. One box is 'Black Talon', the second box is made by RBCD and the third is made by Federal, called their 'Premium' round (it replaced the Black Talon). So, it's NOT just the caliber, but the type of bullet you are using. All three of these types of .357 Mag will do WAY MORE DAMAGE than the gelatin test you posted. You can 'cherry pick' any round so that a .38 looks better in gelatin than a 45 acp (generally ball).

The DEGREE in gunsmithing that I earned REQUIRED that we know this kind of stuff (called the history of firearms - 40 hours in the classroom), and it has come in handy.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

If you are close enough to "bitch slap a mofo" with your handgun, you are incredibly stupid, or just another bitch wearing the opposite colors.

Argent said, "But I don't use the heavier loads more than I have to. I want my .44s to remain fun to shoot."


Then you ought to be handloading. Try 8-10gr Unique with a 240gr swaged bullet. Mild as a kitten, but outclasses any semi-auto in stopping power due to bullet weight and velocity. But that Buntline Special super blackhawk isn't going to do you much good, except as a hunting rig.

Even better for fun shooting are .44 special handloads.

Massad Ayoob carried a 4" 629 in a Summer Special holster while he was traipsing around Johannesburg SA some years back. A very pleasant to carry powerhouse if you have a medium frame build.

No reason to feel "undergunned" with a big-bore cartridge.
If you ever are in a fight for your life scenario, a big-bore has the extra edge.

Recall that most pistol event gunfights occur at 7yds or closer, at least by FBI reports, so how much additional capacity will you need? Maybe you high-cap guys watched too many episodes of the Lone Ranger and determined never to shoot your gun dry? That is what spare magazines are for.

If you anticipate a fight, take a rifle or a shotgun!
Anyone planning on fighting with a handgun, esp one under .44 or .45cal is a moron.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

this place is starting to sound like a bunch of guys with moustaches in dungarees and plaid shirts standing around at the gun show sipping coffee and scratching their balls, talking about shooting people with 45s and such. I can just smell the cosmoline. man, its been a while since I been to a gun show. http://www.msnemotions.org/emoticons...t_sterb003.gif

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

I concur with the 44 Special. I loved the 2" snubbie I used to carry. USED TO CARRY. Even that recoil becomes 'wearing' after firing over 100 rounds (I'm 54 and can't handle the recoil like I used to). Hence the reason I now only carry my .357 loaded with .38 Sp at +P+ rates which are close to the .357 Mag, but doesn't recoil quite as bad. My CZ52 recoils like a 9mm +p. Go read the 'helmet of truth' link I posted. This WILL open your eyes.

Oh, and most 'gunfights' in the US occur at a distance of 7 FT (not yards), last less than three seconds and the number of rounds fired on average is three. THAT is from the FBI stats.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

FWIW - I can shoot my 44-cal one handed !

The frame weight + long barrel cuts down on recoil tremendously. Any gun with .357 or bigger and less than a 6-inch barrel, I won't shoot.

:wink:

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

As an engineer, I know that as long as the bullet doesn't pass through the target's body, the only thing that matters with regard to "stopping power" is the energy of the fired round. Kinetic energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2. So, whichever cartridge has the highest KE after leaving the barrel is the one that will "put the enemy back" the most. If that is your primary concern.

Of course, if you can hit with more than one round then you multiply the KE by how many rounds you hit the target with.

VERY basic physics.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Thanks - great post..........most people these days never take Physics.....:shocked_ma:

Here's a listing of pistol calibers in order of Muzzle Energy (ft/#'s) :

38 Colt >> 338 ft lbs (wimpy)
45 ACP >> 421 ft lbs
9mm (parabellum) >> 440 ft lbs
40 S & W >> 524 ft lbs
357 (Sig) >> 530 ft lbs
10 mm >> 680 ft lbs
44 Magnum >> 1042 ft lbs

http://www.volny.cz/buchtik/Revo/Bal...fo_komplet.htm

This is why I prefer the 44-Mag :D ....shoot --> :bear_angry:'s

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

You guys are 50 - 100 years ahead of me in gun lore. I still like the 30-30 and pre 1900, early 1900s designs, and obviously improvements have been made.

I just never quite trust most autoloader handguns. The old army colt was a pretty sure one, but I'm never as secure feeling with other semi-auto handguns.

Which have you found to be the never jam kings of semi auto pistols?

I have to get wheel guns for the wife. Long story, but it is the only safe thing to do. She has a much bigger mental block than I do and either would shoot herself if she left a round chambered or not get one chambered in time if she needed to fire. The mechanism frightens her and she turns all thumbs and brain dead no matter how many times we go over dry runs.

For some odd reason it is only handguns she is that way about and semi auto shotguns are fine with her.

So I got her a titanium 38 for in home defense, but that day we shot a friend's 44 bulldog she did not mind its recoil either and I might get that and ask Ken to kindly advise me on a road load to put in it for her. I don't mind paying through the nose for the right custom load for her. She hit targets well with it and is amazing about not minding the recoil such a light gun has. She greatly prefers light hand guns and is very unlikely to carry any other kind. A gun she won't carry is no use at all, so I have to purchase accordingly.

Buff, both my wife and I shot that little Charter 44 1 handed, and hit our targets. I had a small bruise on my hand, but she didn't. And we had read you needed arms like tree trunks to shoot such a light gun with such a heavy load. I dunno why it was like that for us because I know it is not for most people.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

True and good point ~ Revolvers don't 'jam'.........which is why I prefer the Ruger 44..........Blackhawk (single action) or Redhawk (dual action)........take yer pick pardner. :wink:

6-shots of 44 on a wheel does git 'er done. :bear_tongue:

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

A pommy movie called

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

.44 Mag works well for Dirty Harry... possibly not so well for normal people affected by the concussion, muzzle flash, and time to bring the gun out of recoil and trained on the target again.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

I'm not so sure that smaller calibers are as useless as we all want to agree they are.

Its my understanding that in Euro land police and thugs carry .32s ,.380s and 9mms.

Are they total wimps? Or are we just so dang hardy we reject these small calibers as if they were a weak virus.

I suspect a hit is a hit and if you don't get hit you win.

I personally like the 40. From what I've gathered its a chopped 10MM but built for Hollow points. I like the capacity 15 in the Mag.

Never shooting a 9mm in my life I can not compare recoils and repeat shots.

E-A

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

I'm married to a red-head Celt... passionate in good ways and Bad :wink:

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

I'm guessing this is from someone who has never fired a .44 Blackhawk ?

It's not that wild of an animal ~ it's reputation is larger than life.
*However, you are correct about concussion if you fire in a small enclosed area like the bathroom.

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

AD, can I come play with the .44 Mag? The ammo must be expensive though!

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Sure........it's a little pricey - but for practice I use reloads. :bear_tongue:

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

IMPAC ST Plate Specifications

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

Wallew's got an excellent point, it really depends on the ammo you use more than just the caliber of pistol. I need some of these for my Glock :

40 cal Remington, 141 gr Plated Frangible 1686

I bet they're about $1 per round too......

YIKES ~ wrong, try about $2 and this is the best I could find :
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/38157-46318-183.html

1450 fps - Extreme Shock : $37 for a box of 20

Re: Pistol Calibers.......
 

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/resou.../44remmbal.htm

.44 Remington Mag :

<TABLE width=528 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>240 SJHP </TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>1760 fps</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE height=137 width=528 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>240 SJHP </TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle height=13>1650 ft-lbs</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>